Seriously--Mario Van fucking Peebles!

Totes the werewolf! "heeee's gonna kill your son!"

--Miles did say that Nikki and Paolo were buried alive (it was awesome).

--I agree with all of your points in favor of this episode, particularly the Tania Raymonde and the reunion scene. In an episode full of callbacks to early-season locations and people (the beach, the Black Rock, Arzt, Nikki & Paolo), it was nice to also get a callback to one of the major narrative tropes of seasons 1 and 2. (While rewatching the early seasons recently, I found the general season 1 thrust of "strangers becoming friends," and all the partings and reunions that went along with it, extremely affecting. The high point slow-mo-reunion-wise of course was the Rose/Bernard reunion in season 2.)

--In general though I think I liked this episode a lot more than you did. My tolerance for Arzt is probably higher, for one thing. But while I take your point on Illana, I actually think making her a part of such an important moment for Ben went a long way toward making me care about her. Even though there's so much we don't know about her and her relationship with Jacob, just seeing her listen to and empathize with Ben filled in a lot of the blanks. (And just from a plot standpoint, there's nobody else he could have made that confession to except maybe Richard--none of the other characters give enough of a shit about Jacob to care.)

--Richard and Jack in the Black Rock was incredible. I don't understand people who don't like Jack, or who think he's just some square-jawed whitebread hero type.

--And Hurley! "If you need me, I'll be like a mile away." HA HA HA HA HA

--And then that periscope popping up out of the water like something out of the old Batman TV show! Yes! And Widmore! YES

--I think the real question here though is how Danielle Rousseau's kid ended up going to public school in LA.

I would have enjoyed that episode a lot more if I'd realized that was William Atherton. Dammit!

One thing I realized: we got the answer to at least one mystery last night. We now know why Ben stopped Locke from committing suicide, then killed him - Candidates can't kill themselves, but they can be murdered!

That was a fun one. It played the emotional angle hard, which worked really well for me, at least, distracting me from some of its flaws enough that I could really enjoy it.

Stray thoughts:

--Hey, it's Professor Hathaway! Don't bother blackmailing him, Ben, just fill his office with popcorn!

--On a related note, this show sure loves employing character actors from the 80s: William Atherton, Fisher Stevens, et al.

--Old Roger Linus is sad.

--VERY happy that they didn't make Alex into the pervert principal's prey, which would have just been WAY TOO MUCH. Nice fakeout.

--It almost made up for the laziness of getting the proof by enlisting Arzt to "hack in" to the email server. It can slide because it's just a means to an end, but ugh.

--Does Richard's directive not to trust Jacob suggest that he is Nemesis?

First and foremost, how the hell did I whiff on bringing up the FUCKING SUBMARINE PERISCOPE at the end? I laughed and cheered. WHY NOT end the episode with the characters being spied on by a goddamn submarine? At times, Lost reminds me of He-Man, or comics like Scott Pilgrim and The Immortal Iron Fist and Green Lantern and so on: "Here's a framework into which we can comfortably insert a wide variety of awesome things, because why not."

Also, a reminder: DO NOT DISCUSS THE "NEXT WEEK ON LOST" TEASERS IN THESE THREADS. Please and thank you.

Gardner:

* I'm glad I'm not the only person who loves those slow-mo reunions. Like I was saying, everyone's so scattered most of the time, and generally suspicious and hostile when they're together, that it was really, aw hell, touching to be reminded that some of these people love each other.

* Part of my problem with Ilana is that Zuleika Robinson isn't all that interesting to me. I can't say she was miscast, because as I said we still have no real idea what Ilana's point is, but it's not a performance that's making me hungry for more.

* My impression as to people's problem with Jack isn't that they think he's too square-jawed, but that he's too emo/too much of a fuck-up/too annoying/too much of a dick/doesn't ask the right questions/etc. In essence, that he's a failure as a hero. But of course that's what I find so fascinating about him! And I have to say that Matthew Fox has made him consistently interesting in that regard. I love looking at him as he falls to pieces time and time again. In this case, we got to see him put himself together in a whole new shape, and it was great TV.

* While we're on the subject, Nestor Carbonell is really gettin' it done with panicked, shattered Richard. Fine work.

Justin: Did Ben KNOW about the concept of "Candidates," or that Locke was one? Other than that, nice deduction.

Simon:

* Alternately, Ben could have hired Bonnie Bedelia to coldcock Principal Reynolds. Or covered him in Dharma-brand melted marshmallow goop.

* Agreed on it being a good thing Alex wasn't Principal Reynolds' target of perversion. Because, honestly, Tania Raymonde--could you blame him?

* Pretty much everything about the high school storyline was inaccurate, yeah. My wife and mother are/were both teachers, and my mom was a principal too, so it got very distracting.

* Richard saying not to trust Jacob was a function of his whole sob story, in which Jacob proved not to be terribly trustworthy. I wouldn't read more into it than that.

After I deduced that, I read the comments thread over at Sepinwall's blog, and several commenters noted several other instances where characters were prevented from committing suicide, including Michael being supernaturally unable to. Are we to assume, then, that barring murder, all the castaways would live forever now?

Also, why were extreme coincidences involved in getting Eko to the island as if he were a candidate if he wasn't a candidate, which I'm assuming is the case since Smokey was able to kill him directly? Or is Smokey somehow the method by which candidates are judged? Maybe this whole thing is an elaborate test, but Smokey took the direct route to judging Eko and found him wanting?

I'm especially curious as well why the hell Rousseau's kid is in LA. I spent every moment she was on-screen trying to piece together a story why - was Danielle's team actually from France? I couldn't remember - and realized in the middle of doing that that yup, I love this show so so much. Because it's got me so invested in nearly every single character that's ever been on-screen. Danielle's been dead for what, two seasons now? Yet I miss her and find myself hoping she pops up soon in Sideways-LA. She deserves a better damn fate too, and I'm psyched that she might get one now.

I like Ilana but I'm not sure why. There were competing hollers in my living-room in that scene between her and Ben - I was screaming for Ben not to dare shoot, while my bf was screaming for him to pull the trigger. It's an interactive sport, watching Lost in my house.

Did anybody else keep expecting the faulty science equipment in Arzt's lab to blow him up?

That girl's running was terrible. Benjamin Linus would have been a half-mile ahead.

Sean, I would think folding in new characters into scenes like that is something you'd like because it's more realistic than having the same old characters end up in conflict because they're the main characters.

I try to avoid doing any sort of larger mythology theorizing based around Eko, Justin, since he was the one that got away actor-wise.

True, Ben. But they could have killed Eko in many ways - he was the first person since the pilot, if I recall correctly, to be directly killed by Smokey. That suggests some thought put into it.

This episode was relevant to my interests. Last one was so-so for me but this one made up for it.

-- Sean, I hear you about the episode being off balance, but that's what made it interesting for me. I wasn't really sure where it was going, and that made the slow-mo piano reunion sequence at the end all the more affecting. After all that, I was ready to hit the beach as well.

-- Jersey Shore-style fist pump for the return of Charles Widmore, and his conveyance worthy of Blofeld.

-- Richard says he didn't age because Jacob touched him. We've seen Jacob touch other characters, too.

-- Loved Jack's turn in this episode. Did his scene inside the Black Rock bring to mind Tom Cruise in the throes of Scientology for anyone else? In a great, creepy way.

-- People complain about Jack, and other characters, because they walk away from the big questions. (I've done my share of bitching too.) In this episode, Richard gave Jack an out to walk away again, and he STAYED! In the face of a burning fuse! That was hugely satisfying. It wouldn't have been as great if he has been directly confronting mysteries at every turn. So I gotta give the creators that.

Jack has been a bit mopey since the bomb plot failed. I'm hoping he's gotten a dose of renewed purpose now, because that's the Jack I loved. Just like you say Sean, he's putting himself together all over again...

-- The dodge ball teams are coming into focus. MIB and his wrecking crew of Claire, Sayid, and Sawyer on Hydra. Jack, Hurley, Miles, Lapidus, Sun, Illyana, and Ben on the beach. I wonder if it's signifigant that Beach Squad features characters who have been wrestling with crises of faith (Jack, Richard, Ben) while Team Hydra consists of characters who have basically said fuck it, I'm done with this bullshit, I want results (Sayid, Sawyer).

-- Seems likely that Jin will get shanghaied to Hydra and the reunion with Sun will take awhile...maybe until the end of the season. Jin is dedicated to finding Sun and I don't see that changing, but it would be an interesting to see him convert to Team Hydra. Kwon against Kwon.

-- Kate is another wild card. What will the MIB offer her? Does he care?

-- The MIB (in the guise of Locke) has been disdainful of the island in the past. Yet he sought out someone to take care of the island when he was gone. Was this a trick on Ben, or does the island have a higher purpose that even the MIB respects?

-- This is the episode where all my theories about the flash-sideways went off the rails. I mean, Ben and Locke and Arzt AND Alex at the same school? There seems to be some hand of fate or web of connectedness keeping everyone together, but...what? I have no clue anymore. But enjoying it thoroughly.

-- Tania Raymonde is my favorite Lost Babe.

-- For the record, I was with Jason's bf in rooting for Ben to shoot. That's the Ben I love. but I must admit I am compelled to see more of the "new" Ben.

-- Kudos to the commenter here (forget who it was) who predicted Illyana was Jacob's daughter. "He was like a father to me" is pretty close!

-- I'm with basically everyone else in feeling that Illyana bugs because we don't know anything about her, but this episode was a step in the right direction. Reserving judgment until she really annoys me.

So Ben got another one of those "happy-ish" endings in the sideways world ala Jack, Hurley and Locke and then pretty firmly aligned with Jack's crew. Sayid did not get one and sided with the MIB team. Makes me interesting to see what happens in Sawyer's sideways story and if that will be telling as far as how devoted he is to MIB's cause.

Also interested to see if Kate's sideways ending ends up not so happy and that reflects on where she falls, since given current patterns it would seem she belongs with Jack's crew.

And then the Kwons...

Man, how good was Michael Emerson? For a show that relies on so much plot twists and turns, individual episodes really do live or die depending on the calibre of the actor taking the lead role, and Emerson must be one of the best amongst a generally extraordinary cast.

That bit where he admits he has no place else to go should be cheesy and corny and all that, but he played it so well that I found it genuinely moving. And then at the end, when everybody else is getting their slow motion hugs, he stands alone and looks so small and pitiful, a long, long way from the man who watched that plane break up in the air above him.

And the fact that he goes back to the beach at all was probably my favourite thing. Ben is just one of several characters who look like they're sick of playing the same old games and are stepping aside from the usual betrayals and plans, but his is the most satisfying, probably because it's such a long way from where the character started.

I think the thing I like about the alternate story track is that they're all facing the same sort of challenges and problems they do on the island, but in a real world context. Without all the Island's machinations, they're still forced into making the same kind of decisions in ways we can all identify with, and it's awfully pleasing to see most of them making the right call.

(Okay, Sayid's story wasn't quite real world troubles, but who knows? Maybe it is for ex-Republican Guards...)

Latest theory that just came to me in a flash. No idea if it actually holds up under scrutiny, but I like the way it sounds:

The sideways timeline is a world where Jacob never existed.

-Do you think Widmore was the person Jacob wanted to signal back to the Island?

-The MIB is just offering everybody what they want to hear. Sawyer a way off the island, Sayid his love back, Claire her child, and now Ben is offered control of the Island. I don't doubt MIB's intention is to be free of the island, but when Sawyer's dream and Ben's are at odds with each other, I don't think he's being totally honest with the people he's recruiting about helping them with their goals. We know for sure he was lying and manipulating Claire.

-If there's this whole system of rules for replacements, then was Jacob once a candidate? Or is this current struggle the first time control of the Island has changed hands?

-Jacob must have been anticipating his removal for a long time, since he was manipulating everybody for more than 50 years. Unless he always just has candidates lined up. Maybe that's why he's constantly causing plane wrecks and ship crashes and such? Just in case?

* Justin: (paraphrasing) If (for example) Eko wasn't a Candidate, why go through all the trouble getting him to the Island?

I always assumed everyone needed to be there to move whoever ended up being the KEY people into place.

* Jason: I'm especially curious as well why the hell Rousseau's kid is in LA.

Hell, why is EVERYONE in L.A.? Ethan and Ben, too?

* Tom: I would think folding in new characters into scenes like that is something you'd like because it's more realistic than having the same old characters end up in conflict because they're the main characters.

I know what you're saying--like how I loved The Sopranos because so many bit parts ended up expanding into leading roles. But this is different. Ilana wasn't some extra who they built up, she was dropped in as Important from the get-go. Without fleshing her out a bit, this scene felt a little forced and flat to me.

* Ben and Justin again: Regarding Eko, yeah, obviously they had a bigger plan in mind for him originally. But once they knew he was leaving, they clearly took that ball and ran with it as far as they can. His death was the first evidence we had that the Monster was taking people's forms, in this case his brother's, and by extension reading minds in some way. It was also the first time we saw the Monster really grab someone and kill the hell out of them--didn't it turn into a fist, even? Finally, they made a big point of having Eko say he'd forgiven himself, he was at peace with himself, and that's what prompted the killing blow. So as Justin says, his death definitely means something.

* Sam: Interesting take on the pacing/balance issue.

I like how everyone's comparing Widmore's sub to the one used by the Joker, the Riddler, the Penguin, and Catwoman in the '60s Batman movie. It'd be awesome if that strident Batman villain motif played every time Widmore showed up.

Good call on Jack staying despite the dynamite being exactly what the fans have long clamored for. I wonder how much more talking Richard will do.

Maybe they will delay the Jin/Sun reunion till the end of the season. Maybe they're the new Penny/Desmond!

I assume MIB's offer to Ben was just a ploy to get another stone-cold killer on his side, couched in the kind of terms Ben had always been receptive to in the past.

Tania Raymonde did some serious leaping up the charts in this episode, but my heart still belongs to Elizabeth Mitchell.

Hearing you and Jason (and vicariously Jason's boyfriend) talk about rooting or not rooting for Ben to shoot Ilana made me realize just how much of a possibility that was, that he would have done it in the past (cf. his murder of Locke or that guy who we thought would be a new main character last season), and that he didn't do it here signals a real break for him.

Was it my brother Ryan who thought Ilana was Jacob's daughter?

* Ben again: I think you're right, that the dichotomy between the characters' fates in the flashsidewayses has to do with who they're teaming up with on the Island.

* Bob: Emerson's outstanding, and I'm glad you noted his "the cheese stands alone" moment there at the end, because so much of the strength of his performance comes from his awkwardness. Another example in this episode is the weird way he sticks his arms out from his sides as Ilana is forcing him away from the camp at gunpoint.

* Gardner: Gotta be something like that.

* Charles: I'm hoping Widmore ISN'T the person Jacob wanted to come back to the Island. I kind of think this is a red herring in that regard, but moreover, I want it to be WALT!

I hope the show goes on to imply that the Jacob/MIB conflict is just one in a long line.

I honestly thought Penny and Desmond wouldn't be together again until the big climax of the entire show, which made their reunion at the end of season four so wonderful. (It's still my favourite moment in the entire damn series.)

But now it increasingly looks like they'll be keeping that Sin/Jun moment for the ending, and I'm cool with that. Reunited lovers who have literally crossed oceans of time to be with each other is always good.

I really doubt it was Widmore that Jacob was trying to signal. Charles is one of those great wild cards the series keeps throwing in that messes up all these grand and delicate plans, but he's not really a pivotal point.

Because yeah, I'm with Sean. If Walt suddenly shows up again, that would be just perfect.

Widmore was obviously there to pick up Fake Locke! How else is he gonna get off the island?

They weren't stopping at the beach, they had somewhere else to go. (I forget what he said exactly)

Oh, and I also laughed out loud when i saw the periscope POV.

I'm going to take this episode as further (but still provisional) confirmation of my theory from last week, which also seems to be pretty consonant with Ben's idea about the flash-sideways outcomes being linked to alignment on the island. more specifically, I think those who side with Jacob are those who successfully CHANGE their natures, and escape their defining flaws in the flash-sideways.

Thus:

Jacob gets: Jack (daddy issues), Ben (power-seeking), Kate (running-- she goes back for Claire), and RealLocke (frustration).

Nemesis gets: Sayid (violence), Sawyer (selfishness). I'm not sure about Claire yet.

I also still think that the pairings with Others matter, given the business with Ethan and Keamy, and the really blatant ways in which they either changed or remained constant in the F/S.

Sean and Charles, you're right, the far more likely possibility is that MIB was just telling Ben what he wanted to hear. Obviously were I on the island I'd end up conned on Hydra too.

I also doubt Jacob was trying to signal Widmore. I kinda doubt he was trying to signal anyone at all. He may just have been tricking Hurley and Jack out of the temple.

(It could have been Ryan who made the call about Ilana...I definitely got that from this site.)

Building off what Simon wrote, given that Jin has definitely overcome his nature and flaws perhaps better than anybody else in the series while Sun actually kinda became a worse person during her off-the-island years (by the way, does she EVER think about her kid?), it would be interesting if they end up on separate sides of the civil war, but not the ones they currently reside on.

However, the romantic in me hopes that's not the case.

I'm a hopeless romantic too, but Sun and Jin won't be on separate sides. They only care about being reunited, so are more likely to be on neither side in the end. Which is probably the right side to be, as it has been suggesting fairly heavily for the last couple of seasons that those who don't play the game end up doing quite well outside it.

And Jacob was definitely trying to signal somebody, but he wasn't too worried about the mirror smashing because that somebody will still find a way.

This show doesn't offer up dialogue alluding to somebody important arriving without following up on it, especially at this stage. And it should be somebody more significant than Widmore, who has never been as important as he thinks he is, no matter how rich he is.

Bob, interesting point. Widmore always seemed like the ultimate big bad guy of the series. But with the introduction of Jacob and MIB, he just seems like another frustrated pawn. Is Widmore headed for a Ben Linus-style crisis of faith? THAT would be interesting.

Batshit hypothesis #302,758:

In sideways time, after the sinking of the Island (and gentle corruption of the subsequent timestream, which shuffles the lives of our cast ever so slightly) Hugo is Jacob.

* Bob:

The nice thing about the Penny/Desmond reunion is that if they HAD waited until the end of the show, we'd all be complaining about how dragged out it was. Instead they surprised everyone and in so doing bypassed a typical complaint about the show, which is that everything takes too long. So when i think about the Jin/Sun thing, I wonder if they'll delay it that long after all.

I'm swiping this from Matthew Perpetua, but as COOP says, Widmore seems a lot more likely to be the MIB/Locke's ticket off the Island than he is the guy Jacob's trying to summon. Seems to me like after he was exiled, he went to work for the MIB.

WALT!

* Simon: I wonder if your dichotomy will pan out. I'm still not convinced we're to read that much into Keamy, about whom we knew next to nothing in the original timeline other than that he's violent.

* Ben: Wow, you're right--though she stopped before the point of no return, Sun became the violent jerk Jin had been and now is no longer.

* Bob again:

Agreed, Jin and Sun won't be on opposite sides. I think it'd take one of them getting killed for the other to voluntarily go over to the MIB, but they've already sounded that note with both Sawyer and Sayid.

"Widmore, who has never been as important as he thinks he is, no matter how rich he is." BOOYAH.

* Sam: I'd imagine Widmore already HAD his crisis of faith in Jacob, and is now working for the MIB for that reason.

* rev'D: You crazy!

Here is the video http://bit.ly/9Mgg18